VERY IMPORTANT, ALL BOA & PYTHON KEEPERS PLEASE READ

[ReptileMan27]

http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/index.php?/archives/202-Feds-Move-To-Ban-Pythons-Boas.html

[prism_wolf]

Wow - I guess any of us in this hobby for any length of time to see something like this coming though. What a shame...:'( I'll be passing this around, too. Thanks for this update...

[MrsWTownsend]

Thank you for sharing that! I will be sending my $0.02 to the gov. & passing it on, as well.

[cwjgaboon]

Count me in.ill be sending my say so.

[snakewrangler]

The headquarters is 15 minutes from my house. I think I'll hand-deliver my letter.

Should this be enacted, it will drive a lot of hobbyists underground...

[cwjgaboon]

will ur letter be ticking?oops did i say that out load. ;D

[cwjgaboon]

duh......loud

[snake_eyes]

lol I didn't even notice "load" I had to go back after duh...loud.

This is utter gorilla SH**!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many freaking things is the American Government gonna take away from us. I think it's time for an uprising.

[prism_wolf]

Whatever y'all do - write, email, voicemail, fax - whatever - be respectful. Being rude and ugly will get you ignored - and people mad. This will result in just the opposite effect.

[Quig]

I agree. Do it as politely as possible.

[burmmamma]

God this would so suck. If there was a way to keep the large snakes out of the hands of idiots then this would not happen.

[cwjgaboon]

Ya! We all have to be nice but it still sucks that we have to do it to the people that are trying to take away something we all love.I say we start something up that will take away there hobbies and let them see what its like.All because of a bunch of morons that cant be responsible we have to suffer. >:(

[MrsWTownsend]

God this would so suck. If there was a way to keep the large snakes out of the hands of idiots then this would not happen.


This is my contention. What alternative does this leave us with, because of irresponsible owners? Regulatory back ground checks and applications/licensing, like when you're buying a gun? Or a pit bull, or a python, or a hot species... Make sellers/breeders responsible for who they make their products available to and for maintaining sales records accurately?

Prices sky rocket, but at least you can still participate.

[snakewrangler]

I see nothing wrong with requiring licenses for large boids and hots. I am against a ban but not licensing. It may reduce the number of animals in the hands of idiots.

[cwjgaboon]

Ya thats very true.we could still have our babies then.lol

[burmmamma]

We have been selling burms for a few years and there have been numerous people that I have turned down both in person and over the phone. One couple came to our house and had their 4 month old baby in a carrier-the father took the burm (a hatchling) and let it crawl all over the baby. I told him not to do that and he proceeded to tell me that the snake had to get used to the baby b/c they would grow up together. I then showed him the mother (she was 15 feet at the time) and asked him if he would let me put his baby in the cage with her. He told me I was being ridiculous and I told him no more ridiculous than he was and politely asked him to leave.

Another guy called my house from NY-big snakes are banned up there-and asked me if he bought one and kept it in a 10 gallon tank would it stay small???? I told him to check into a ball python and I would not sell him a burm.

Fortunately I was able to control these situations but unfortunately we can't control them all. We keep records of who we sell to (the names, where the snakes were shipped). We try to feel them out over the phone and see if they know what they are getting into but its not always possible.

[MrsWTownsend]

It still doesn't solve the irresponsible owner problem though. Just like purchasing a weapon, you can screen the crap out of them; they can look great on paper and say all of the right things to get what they want. Still, when they release it, even after having gone through all of that, how do you know exactly who's python that was that killed the kid down the street before it slithered off into the brush?

Let's see... If licensing were required to keep animals which are considered to be a danger, and said licensing was required to be renewed annually (or at some regular interval) by the pet owner, then there would have to be some method of proving, if say, one year you register or renew your license and the next year you do not, as to what happened to the animal (how it was disposed of, who was it sold to, etc). You would have to send them the dead body or proof of sale (which would require your maintaining records for sales or probably special sales licensing) or SOMETHING, otherwise there is no realistic way to keep undesirables from ruining it for everybody.

[Quig]

Another guy called my house from NY-big snakes are banned up there-and asked me if he bought one and kept it in a 10 gallon tank would it stay small????


Did you tell him only FISH do that? I would have, as I was escorting him out ;)

Quig

[Quig]

The truth about anything the government tries to regulate is that no matter what they do and how well it works for those who choose to do it the right way, there will ALWAYS be someone doing it on the sly and creating havoc for the rest of us.

You CANNOT keep guns out of the hands of criminals even if guns are outlawed (please God don't let THAT happen) The same will be true with reptiles. The black market business will boom.

Quig

[heart4herps]

God this would so suck. If there was a way to keep the large snakes out of the hands of idiots then this would not happen.


Exactly!!! It's not fair to penalize those of us who are responsible reptile owners just because of a select few morons!

[snakewrangler]

The truth about anything the government tries to regulate is that no matter what they do and how well it works for those who choose to do it the right way, there will ALWAYS be someone doing it on the sly and creating havoc for the rest of us.

You CANNOT keep guns out of the hands of criminals even if guns are outlawed (please God don't let THAT happen) The same will be true with reptiles. The black market business will boom.

Quig


We'll never know if it is 'booming,' but there is definitely a black market for reptiles out there...

[Quig]

Always has been, but I think something like this will make it a better business venture.

[prism_wolf]

A more detailed post from another forum
************************************************** *******************************************
I will let you decide if you wish to send comments to the US Fish and Wildlife.

Read about the proposal first before acting. If such a proposal goes into law this would be a huge impact on the hobby as a whole.

Folks this is SERIOUS!!!! US Fish & Wildlife is proposing a ban of ALL SPECIES in the genera of Python, Boa & Eunectes (latin for Anaconda). If this is passed, it will ban all interstate trade (that means buying & selling!) or importation of those genera (genera = plural for "genus") in the private sector.

Eunectes = Anacondas
Boa = includes ALL of the Boa constrictor species...yes, your Colombian boas, your red-tails, Argentine, Bolivian, Brazilian...anything whose scientific name starts with Boa constrictor...

And folks, the genus "Python" encompasses the following:

Ball pythons
Angolan pythons
Bloods & short-tails
Burms/rocks
Retics
Timors

This is FOR REAL!!! It is time for us ALL to have a voice & make our feelings known in a polite, respectful yet FIRM way!

THIS IS AN UPDATE WHICH INCLUDES THE NEWS REPORT FROM PETHOBBIST

COURTESY OF PETHOBBIST.COM AT:
http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/index.php?/archives/202-Feds-Move-To-Ban-Pythons-Boas.html[/center]

Feds Move To Ban Pythons & Boas

The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has made a significant move towards banning the importation and interstate transport of Boa Constrictors and Pythons in the United States.

Quietly published in the Federal Register, the agency is accepting public comments until April 30th. If enacted this will devastate an already hard hit industry, dealing a fatal death blow to a large number of businesses dependent on this segment of the industry and drying up the supply of these pets to pet owners across the United States.

Noted herpetologist, author, former zoo keeper, and one of the leading private researchers and breeders of pythons in the United States, David Barker, had this to say...

This is the formal notification and request for public comments regarding the intention of USF&W Service to place ALL snakes in the genera Boa, Python, and Eunectes on the Injurious Wildlife List of the Lacey Act.

If enacted as regulation, this will ban the importation of said snakes into the USA , and ban all interstate transportation of said snakes.

There is a request made for public input and we feel it will be very important that all keepers with an interest in boas and pythons make written response before 30 April.


If this goes through, herpetoculture as we know it, is going to RADICALLY change, and NOT for the better! No more big reptile shows, because out-of-state vendors wouldn't be able to attend. No more buying your snakes from a breeder out of state. No more herpetoculture as it is right now!


The time to act is NOW!!!!!!!


Send your comments directly to the government here http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=SubmitComment&o=09000064803a565f


This is the proposal found on the Regulations.gov site. I've added the link after the proposal if you would like to check it out.

Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera
Send a Comment or Submission Send a Comment or Submission | Notification Notification

We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes …

Agency: FWS Document Type: OTHER Comments Due: Apr 30, 2008
Docket ID: FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015 Document ID: FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015-0001

Site link for the proposal:

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/ContentViewer?objectId=09000064803a565f&disposition=inline&contentType=html


UPDATE



Once the importation and inter-state transport has been banned, there will be a rapid exodus of breeders of these species, and eventually they will disappear from the marketplace along with a significant number of businesses and jobs. Pet owners will feel the pinch as dry goods suppliers and caging manufacturers stop producing products for that segment of the hobby, and eventually it will be impossible to obtain a new pet boa or python.

To review the USF & W Service proposal, please look at the following document.

http://kingsnake.com/FWSReview.pdf




kingsnake.com will host a special chat on the proposed federal regulations.

On Friday, February 29, at 10 PM Eastern, in kingsnake.com's Chat Room


Invitations to participate as panelists have been submitted to the following individuals and organizations. As panelists are confirmed we will update this message and the guest list for Chat Week. More panelists may be added as required, and panelists that are unavailable will be removed from the list.

Invited Panelists:

* PIJAC
* Reptiles Magazine
* David/Tracy Barker - Vida Preciosa Intl.
* Kamuran Tepedelen - Bushmaster Reptiles
* Kevin McCurley - N.E.R.D. ~ confirmed
* Jeff Ronne - The Boaphile
* Rich Ihle - Salmonboa.com
* Ralph Davis - Ralph Davis Reptiles



* Jeff Barringer - kingsnake.com ~ confirmed
* USF&W Service
* Brian Sharp - Brian Sharp Reptiles
* Bill Brandt - Gourmet Rodent
* Wayne Hill - National Reptile Breeders Expo
* Eugene Bessette - Ophiological Services
* Bob Clark - Bob Clark Reptiles
* Brian Potter - NARBC/Chicago Reptile House


As the Federal Register outlines, only comments submitted in the format that they have specified will be reviewed. Comments on message boards, BLOGs, and petitions will not be accepted or reviewed. We recommend that everyone focus their efforts on submitting comments using the required procedure rather than methods that will not produce tangible results.

Individuals and businesses may submit their comments at http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=SubmitComment&o=09000064803a565f.


Please take time to review the proposal in full, and only submit comments relevant to the specific requests. General comments and abusive comments are liable to be discarded, unread. Please spell check your comments before submitting them.



LACEY ACT OF 1900
http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/ANS/ANSInjurious.cfm


The Lacey Act (pdf file) is a law that dates back to the early 1900’s and is one of the oldest wildlife related laws on the books. Under the Lacey Act, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to regulate the importation and transport of species, including offspring and eggs, determined to be injurious to the health and welfare of humans, the interests of agriculture, horticulture or forestry, and the welfare and survival of wildlife resources of the U.S. Wild mammals, wild birds, fish, mollusks, crustaceans, amphibians, and reptiles are the only organisms that can be added to the injurious wildlife list.


Read This Link About The Lacey Act

http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/ANS/ANSInjurious.cfm


http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/ANS/pdf_files/50CF_16_10-05.pdf



WHAT TO LOOK FOR AND SUBMIT


Docket ID FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015
Long Title Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes from Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera

Document ID FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015-0001
Document Title Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera

How to Comment You may submit comments by one of the following methods:

• Federal eRulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
• U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, Attn: RIN 1018-AV68, Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222, Arlington, VA 22203. Instructions: We will not accept e-mail or faxes. We will post all comments on http://www.regulations.gov. This generally means that we will post any personal information you provide us (see the Public Comments section).


http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=09000064803a565f



This proposal was requested by the state of Florida to the US Fish and Wildlife. When the US Fish and Wildlife puts a proposal forward it is nationwide.

To date there is only one snake and its eggs that is banned in the US and that is the brown tree snake.

My personal feeling is that each state should handle this matter and not the federal government.

Would love to hear your comments, further research and/or facts on this subject .

[snake_eyes]

Sometimes I really hate America. Our government is sh**. Why do they go looking for things to ban? George has made it much easier for us to get guns but we can't keep a snake? People have the power, we just need enough of them to get together and tell the government what's up.

[Quig]

Mind if I copy this off and pass it round?

[prism_wolf]

PLEASE!! PASS IT AROUND!! It was begun in the pethobbyist.com forum for the very purpose of getting it around to whom it needs to! Word needs to get around. April is not that far away.

[Stone]

Please everyone sign this petition.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/

[heart4herps]

I signed the petition AND submitted my comments.

Comment Submitted - Your Comment tracking number is 803a8bb2

ETA - and I'm passing it around to everyone I know.

[snakewrangler]

I signed and submitted.

[MrsWTownsend]

Thanks Stone; I put my $0.02 in as well.

[snakecharmer23]

I see nothing wrong with requiring licenses for large boids and hots. I am against a ban but not licensing. It may reduce the number of animals in the hands of idiots.


In a perfect world I would have to agree with you about requiring licenses, but then knowing all these animal right's organizations (like HSUS) and our government I worry that they would eventually start charging too high of a fee that the common person would not be able to afford. *sigh*

I don't even know if I agree with microchipping. I think it's great that namely Florida will have an easier time charging irresponsible owners from illegally leasing their burms/retics/whatever into the wild, but then I care for the idea of the general public having access to owners. Our neighbors are cool right now with what we own, but if we should move whose to say the new neighbors won't be as nice?

On a different note: Not only do I think everyone needs to sign the petition, but I think breeders and private owners need to submit written responses to the questions asked by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Alot are no brainers mainly b/c most states don't have the type of environment these specific snakes need to survive...particulary during the winter.

Personally I don't think anything will come out of this, mainly b/c there is NO scientifc data that supports all boas and pythons are "injurious" to the various ecosystems...but I guess it depends what kind of support they have. I think it's a joke this was proposed by the South Florida Water Management District (particulary when they only cover 16 counties). Carp introduction has caused more damage...

Anyhoo, felt the need to state my opinion. ;D

[snakewrangler]

I'll be sending in my thoughts and comments, but the more I think about this, the more I think that this will be something that will be left up to each state. Most of the regulations on animals are found at the state/regional level. Some folks around here claim that Sugar Gliders are illegal in the county, but I've never seen any evidence of it.

[prism_wolf]

Most municipalities may not even be aware of the local animal laws concerning basic domestic animal cruelty. I actually had to take a copy of the entire set of state laws to both sets of law enforcement agencies here, both city police and county sheriff's dept. - and who knows how far they even read through them. Local animal laws are usually left up to the animal organizations and wildlife agencies of the area. Unless there is a direct issue with neighbor complaints - or the local law enforcement is left with a situation where animals will be directly and negatively affected by their actions - no one upholds any exotic animal laws. You can't exactly go door to door to see you has illegal animals or not.

This is still a proposition that cannot pass - but for local keeping of these animals - this is only a minor inconvenience, but even many vets will still see these animals through the back door.

[prism_wolf]

Petition signed - and commented. The same comments will go onto the right representatives.

[ReptileMan27]

please sign this
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/

[prism_wolf]

Thanks ReptileMan27. Stone beat you to it...it's what I just signed... ;D

[snakecharmer23]

I don't even know if I agree with microchipping. I think it's great that namely Florida will have an easier time charging irresponsible owners from illegally leasing their burms/retics/whatever into the wild, but then I care for the idea of the general public having access to owners. Our neighbors are cool right now with what we own, but if we should move whose to say the new neighbors won't be as nice?


I was going over my response again and noticed an error...I meant to put: I don't care for the idea of the general public having access to a national database that lists people's names and snakes.

[Nexus]

I am definitly going to be printing out the posts that have the relative links and passing this on.

Thanks everyone for your links and input !!!

Like cwjgaboon's signature says ..

" Punish the deed ... NOT the Breed " !!!!

[superdave1781]

I'm new to this forum and would like to take a moment to say hi to everyone!
Now, as for this issue: We all need to respond to this, but everyone needs to be careful with what they say. The facts are these snakes are NOT a threat to public safety (check out the statistics on Rexano.com) and they are NOT a threat to the ecosystem of this country...there are only a few specific locations in North America where they could survive through a winter, one of which is the everglades of Florida. Florida has already passed a law requiring microchipping (among other things) and are dealing with their problem. This is NOT a nationwide crisis which would require federal regulations.
Something that I've read here that I find troublesome is that many wouldn't have a problem with requiring microchipping, registering requirements and/or permits...All of which would be difficult and expansive for the government to enforce, and would be expansive to the general owner. Only those who abuse the animals and abuse their rights should be punished, no matter what the issue is. I do not believe in the middle school mentality that if one student disrupts the class, nobody gets to go out for recess. Allowing permitting is just another form of government controll and an intrusion into our privacy. If there is no other solution to the problem, then I might could handle permitting in certain situations, but not on this issue because their is no basis for it. And I don't agree with businesses (stores, breeders, etc.) that think they are superior enough to judge someone in 5 mins and determine they shouldn't own the pet...I guess it's up to you to sell or not, but I personally will not do business with stores/breeders with that mentality as they often let prejudice do the decision making for them. If a person shows the knowledge to take care of the pet, then there is no reason not to sell it to them...you're not keeping them from getting one and you're only hurting your own business by not making a sell.
In short though, just fight the issue at hand, and don't be willing to give up liberties just to maintain other ones that are under attack for no reason.

[rwagoner]

Something that I've read here that I find troublesome is that many wouldn't have a problem with requiring microchipping, registering requirements and/or permits...All of which would be difficult and expansive for the government to enforce, and would be expansive to the general owner. Only those who abuse the animals and abuse their rights should be punished, no matter what the issue is. I do not believe in the middle school mentality that if one student disrupts the class, nobody gets to go out for recess. Allowing permitting is just another form of government controll and an intrusion into our privacy. If there is no other solution to the problem, then I might could handle permitting in certain situations, but not on this issue because their is no basis for it.


The micro chipping doesn't cost that much and would provide a way to link the problem owners with the snakes. Thus in the long run it would solve the issue at hand.

[superdave1781]

microchipping a single snake wouldn't be bad, but for those who have many it can get expensive quick. And what problem would it solve? Like I said, the only location that had a problem is dealing with it...why would the rest of us need to microchip? If you want to microchip your snakes, that fine, but don't try to force it on everyone else. And why only snakes? Dogs and cats are much more dangerous and disruptive to nature then snakes, so they should be microchipped too. While we're at it, lets start microchiping children at birth, so we can catch those who sell their child on the black market.

[rwagoner]

The reality is that the few owners who have disregard ruin it for everyone else. It happens with everything in life, not just snakes.

[Quig]

Dave, chipping dogs and cats is actually an excellent idea. There is CERTAINLY a bigger problem with those than rogue snakes. It would force irresponsible owners to pay for their negligence. Same same with reptiles, if you aren't the type to release you don't have a problem. If you are then you face whatever punisment gets doled out. As far as the cost of micro chipping, even if you owned several hundred snakes it would be worth it in the long run. there is also the benefit of being able to track stolen reptiles this way, and THAT does happen. Just my take on this.

Quig

[prism_wolf]

Microchipping children...please - don't get carried away and blow things out of proportion. There are pros and cons to every issue. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about a subject...but being reasonable will get more positive attention... ;)

I, for one, would LOVE to see dog and cat owners be more responsible for their pets. Microchipping and mandatory spay/neuter laws for non-legit breeders and private owners would help the over-population problem SO much!! Trust me - I have taken in enough of these animals, taken enough to court, and have cried in the fur of the dying or those who needed to be euthanized.

I'm also for mocrochipping for reptiles. Just my thoughts being coming from another aspect of the animal field - rescue work.

[rwagoner]

The big issue behind the micro chipping is whether the level of enforcement needed to make this work will be there. Every seller will need to be submitting records of sales with the corresponding micro chip code to a central location. I have a feeling this will end up with an reptiles being sold under the table.

[snake_eyes]

Hmmmmmm that's quite possible boss.

[snakecharmer23]

Who knew microchipping was such a hot topic? LOL...

Now...if they offered packaged deals on microchipping then I wouldn't have as much a problem with it (or better yet if they did it for free!), but I do have a problem with it when they start requiring microchipping in areas where there has been no problems associated with non native species snake introduction.

Especially in areas like Virginia? Hmmm...

Nor do I plan on moving to Florida, Georgia, or any of those nice east coast environments our snakes could possibly survive in any time soon to release them.

But in my ignorance I can't seem to comprehend what microchipping will accomplish? Has it helped Florida? It hasn't been long enough to gather supportive data...so I guess it is a waiting game. Whose to say Billy Bob won't tell the nice po po that he didn't "purposely" release his 14 ft retic, that it just "escaped". I would say they would have to actually catch the person releasing the snake.

Now, granted I've never had a problem with an escapee...maybe b/c we watch ours like a hawk and all of our cages our securely closed with locks...

People from all walks of life are irresponsible, particularily in areas not related to animals...especially concerning children, so maybe microchipping children isn't a bad idea (then they'll have an easier time of locating the chick who left her kid on the church's porch step at 3 in the morning during sub-zero temperatures...which is highly illegal by the way).

In my very, very limited experience people who own warm and fuzzies are even less responsible. Even being a warm and fuzzy owner I don't hold it against people if they rehome their pets. That is their business...

SO, my solution: require not only reptile microchipping, but ALL animal (cat, dog, zebra, horse, etc., etc.) microchipping to set the scales (har, har) even. And charge the same price (I've heard reptile microchipping is slightly higher than your typical dog and cat)...but who knows I'm probably wrong. I don't work/own a pet store, run a rescue, even volunteer at rescues! I'm just a collector of all animals (I'm sure PETA would love to hear me say that).

Also, from what I understand there are different companies out there (Home Again, InfoPet, AVID, blah, blah, blah) and not all places that scan use the same (or any) of those companies! Will you would just be up say creek without a paddle...So, lets get the government involved...spend bunches of money so every clinic and pound in every state, county, town, city is on the same track and then we will be in business!

Give an inch, they'll take a mile...I've seen it happen at the Outer Banks (under the guise of protecting the two piping plovers)

[superdave1781]

forcing people to microchip and register their pets does NOT make them more responsible! I think it's a bit naive of you all to think that. The ole "just pass a law for it, so then they will have to obey" mentality. People (in general) really need to stop and think critically about what they support, and not just go for the "feel good solution" which often doesn't help anything, and can even make the situation worse...but it "sounds" good and it makes them feel better about themself so they support it. Let's look at this...what will microchipping solve? It won't help identify those who mistreat their animals, and it doesn't help the rescues any if the owner drops the animal off! And as for animals released into the wild, they can't give you a ticket if they don't see you do it...even in Texas right now where it is illegal to collect herps along road cuts; you could be standing in the R.O.W. holding 10 snakes, and they can't give you a ticket unless they actually see you collect it from the wild...if they find one in the wild that's microchipped, the owner simply has to say it escaped or was stolen, and there's nothing that can be done. FORCING people to microchip just doesn't help the problem...it's like treating a deadly flu strain with tylenol...you treat the symptons and the person appears to get better so you "feel good" about it, but they will still die from it cause you didn't treat the cause. The only thing you can really do is educate educate and educate, and for those who don't listen and ARE caught releasing them or abusing their pets, they should be punished appropriately (which I think should be more severely then the punishments now).
Now, I'm not saying there isn't good things about microchipping...people can microchip their pet so if it is stolen or lost, they have a better chance of getting it back because they can ID it without a doubt, and maybe breeders could utilize the microchips and scanning equipment to identify and keep track of their offspring, and not have to worry about possible mix ups. The thing is, this should be left up to the individual to decide if this is something that will benefit them or not.

[Quig]

OK, if a chipped snake is found loose and returned to the owner and he just says it escaped and that he didn't turn it loose, fine it's believable once. If same snake gets found out and about again the guy should be fined. If it starts to happen on a regular basis remove his big snakes and jerk his permits. One irresponsible owner eliminated.

If you're a responsible owner all you're out is the fee for the permits and the price of chipping.

I DO understand not wanting authorites involved in your private life. The government is there MORE than enough for my liking, but I don't see a problem with wanting to get people to be responsible with their charges.

I certainly don't have a better solution, and if you do maybe you should contact the proper authorities and explain it to them. And before you take this as sarcasim, it's not ;). If there's a better solution it should be bought to someones attention. Just my opinions

Quig

[MrsWTownsend]

Well Dave, welcome. While I appreciate your participation in the discussion and perspective, I have to say that I don't think there's any naivety going on here; the discussion is alternatives to the already proposed ban.

Proposing a complete nationwide ban is naive. At least we're having a constructive discussion to try to come up with an alternative solution to what has been recognised as an already existing problem in states where these species are able to thrive in the environment. Obviously, the ideal situation would be as it is now, without federal limits, regulations and bans; unfortunately, someone has gone and screwed that up for all of the rest of us.

So if maintaining records of purchase/sale, licensing, permits and micro-chipping are not viable arguments as alternatives to a federally proposed nationwide ban of the constrictor species, then what is?

[superdave1781]

well, this is my last post in this forum as I recently found out who runs it...a while back he was blasting a little girl on craigslists for wanting a pet turtle, being very cocky and acting like he knew what was best for others, and when called out on this his arrogance was amazing (went on and on about how he knows so much about reptiles, and that if you didn't agree with him, then you didn't know anything and how he runs the largest reptile forum, etc etc.) At the time I wasn't completely sure if he was just being a troll or was serious, but it was obvious after a few emails that he was serious...so anyways, I'm gone after this response!
To "Mrs WTownsend", I do think there is naivety, and I even pointed out why...maybe you or others were offended by the wording, and I am sorry for that, but it is naive to think you can solve a problem by placing restrictions but not addressing the root of the problem. And as for your question, I feel like I answered that in my post, but here it is again...it should be left up to the LOCAL government to handle their specific problem with rules/regulations and even laws (only when absolutely necessary) that are for that SPECIFIC problem...there is no "national" problem and this proposed amendment to the Lacey Act is unwarranted, and if enough people argue the facts with them, then it will be dropped; there is no need to start compromising from the start on this (and suggesting "alternative solutions") because they don't have a legitimate argument. This is what the AR movement wants...they push for a mile, and you give them a foot to stop...then, after some time they push for a mile again, and you give them another foot...in the end, they come out ahead, and you come out screwed. Only compromise if there is a reason to compromise...this proposal will not stand up under scrutiny.

[prism_wolf]

Dave - you have not offered a better idea. The only suggestion you made was that the local government bodies handle it...but handle it how?

It seems the only reason you joined this forum to begin with is to be argumentative in this particular thread. We all appreciate differences of opinion. Looking around the forum you will see this in various areas. You keep proposing things without a true and final conclusion - just shifting the problem to another government (though local) body who would offer the same sort of results and restrictions unless offered another direction of thought and solution.

I am sorry you feel this way about the forum. However, this is a well run forum with a lot of very constructive posts...and we tend to have fun. Maybe if you had participated in other parts of the forum instead of being exclusive to this thread - you would have enjoyed it a little more.

[dana51581]

well, this is my last post in this forum as I recently found out who runs it...a while back he was blasting a little girl on craigslists for wanting a pet turtle, being very cocky and acting like he knew what was best for others, and when called out on this his arrogance was amazing...

wow... I can't even finish reading this post.

As MrsWTownsend stated:

While I appreciate your participation in the discussion and perspective, I have to say that I don't think there's any naivety going on here; the discussion is alternatives to the already proposed ban.

If anyone is being arrogant i'd have to say its the new member who has joined simply to belittle whatever we say, rather than joining the discussion with an open mind.

Its probably better that this is your last post, as the members here prefer a more civil and understanding atmosphere to express their thoughts...

[MrsWTownsend]

Buh bye now... Come back when you have something constructive and pertinent to offer to the forum.

[Quig]

Buh bye now... Come back when you have something constructive and pertinent to offer to the forum.


Gina, yer such a sweet heart

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/QuigsPlace/cid_00d901c7803c3cbf1fa00a01a8c0Hom.gif

[MrsWTownsend]

I was just returning that warm and fuzzy group feeling Dave has offered to all of us...

[Palor]

Passing such a law will only cause breeders to go underground. A black market for reptiles of this nature would spring up and trade of boas and pythons would continue illegally.

As usual our oversensitive government has a knee jerk reaction and imposes a silly law. I can understand banning such reptiles in places where they can thrive as foreign invaders, but nationwide is ridiculous. I can't imagine escaped/released Burms colonizing Minnesota.

This thing should be handled at the state or even county level. The big gov should lay off.

[MrsWTownsend]

I agree Palor, that seems like the most effective way to address the problem.

Since it's one of the affected states that has brought up the proposal for a federal ban, this means that the states would rather wash their hands of it and pass the buck to the feds than deal with it on their own. How ironic is that? In any other situation where the feds come in and try to regulate of their own accord, the states would be screaming and demanding they be allowed to address it themselves!

Of course, we are talking about Florida here... (I don't want to get into politics here but something about low shrubbery in Florida comes to mind immediately)

[snake_eyes]

I see both points in Dave's statements and everyone else's. I do think microchipping will get very little done. The only thing that would change is being able to identify the snake 100%.

It should be a local government thing, wether city, county, or state. It shouldn't be a national issue. Crazy people flying planes into buildings is a national issue. The local government should have there own rules/regulations/laws for the issue at hand. Although I would love to see a group of FBI agents busting down a house because someone has a certain snake species in their home.

And I think that Dave was just passionate about what he wrote. Although he didn't have to say we're all naive. I agree with his view point but not his attitude.

[MrsWTownsend]

Alright, I'm sorry for being lippy to Dave... :(

Sorry Dave. Now stop attacking us for trying to discuss the issues please.

BUT even if we can convince the feds to push it back onto the states and make it 'officially' their individual responsibility, that's the situation as it stands RIGHT NOW, and these states have chosen to wash their hands of it and pass the buck to the feds.

I can't imagine any state that would want to become federally regulated rather than being able to handle matters themselves, after all, that's what they were elected into office for! So, either it is laziness on the part of these states government officials, or they have been unable to come up with solutions to these issues on their own. Perhaps, we should start sending our suggestions to them, as well???

Microchipping is a viable solution; obviously it is not desireable and will cost us all money (I'm a constrictor owner too), but it affords some small amount of accountability for the irresponsible owners who have brought this topic to the forefront by their own actions. I think that if your snake is found someplace other than in your care, you are responsible for it, whether it got out by accident or not, and you should be dealt with accordingly. That's like saying "Yeah, I was drunk, but it was an accident! I didn't MEAN to do it". There are definitely a ton of loopholes that have to be worked out, like, how do you get someone who's already got the snakes to come in and voluntarily report them and get them micro-chipped or licensed or whatever? The Grandfather clause defeats the purpose of weeding out the undesirables. So what are you going to do? Go door to door statewide and inspect peoples homes?

We know what will happen to the snakes... They will be killed.

[snake_eyes]

Realistically, there probably won't be a solution that takes all the issues into consideration. You're right about it being a national problem NOW. No matter what happens, not everyone will be happy. They should just drop this idea here and now. That would be the best COA. And personally, I'm really not worried about it. I don't know how many ideas get put up like this and just stop. I remember that a few states were trying to make it so you have to be like 30 to buy a video game, or take them off the shelves all together. Never gonna happen. Just like they'll never get rid of cigarettes.